A chance to
dialog From Welbaum
Marquis; I
wish we could have met prior
A Strange Encounter
My 1st encounter with Joshua was a lunch hour in Issaquah. My friends and I had just fished my political billboard out of the storm pond, re-dug the foundation, screwed it back together and where about to grab a bite when a very exercised young man comes from his car and approached me. Some woman he was with was imploring him to leave it alone. He was upset that I had informed the public that Kerry had voted for Homosexual Marriage. He cursed and fumed all the while telling me how devout a Christian he was. I suggested we could dialog via email, but in the end he went bezerk and in front of cameras, witnesses and his wife proceeded to destroy the sign. I defended the structure and shortly thereafter he left. He was caught by the police and arrested. Much later when the court date was looming, he sued for peace and I allowed him to go free. What follows is a very strange dialog that we subsequently exchanged via E-Mail.
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Marquis; Response to apology
1/27/2004
Joshua Welbaum
Dear Mr. Welbaum,
Apology accepted. It seems our public schools have been so
dominated with one voice speaking left coast PC, that too many of our people
have not been exposed to anything more than one voice. I can understand the
shock. I can also understand that if one has never been exposed to another well
articulated view, that one might never have cause to question the perfect
rightness of ones own opinion. Thus convinced of the undeniable rightness of
the cause, any means become justified by the “righteous” ends. A left leaning
caller on KVI recently speaking of the shenanigans in the Governor race said
“Heh – by whatever means necessary.”
This is the very thing my son spent some, fortunately not
all, his blood in Iraq fighting for. There is right and wrong, but what keeps
us from fighting in the streets over it, like in Iraq, is the ability to have
peaceable dialog. That is what makes what you did far more serious than a bit
of graffiti on the school wall.
Now, the circumstances have taught this lesson via the harsh
reality imposed by the law. I do hope you, having learned this lesson, may be
able to become a moderating influence in your circle that peace may be found
here in our own backyard. You, being a believer, might appreciate and with some
chagrin disseminate to your friends the saviors advice found at Math 5:25.
As for compensation, for your information: The commercial
replacement value of the graphics is worth $300 each side and the structure -
$50 and the installation time about 3 hours. However, I purchased my own
specialty printer just for this cause, which cut down my per sheet material
costs to about $60 plus about 3 hours of my time which is valued at about
$50/hour by those who pay for it. So you see, since I was manufacturer, having
to replace and rebuild those signs, I was a very busy bee considering the
dozens of attacks I suffered. It’s hard to place an exact value because of the
nature of the loss, but as I spoke with your advocate, I will only ask that my
fixed costs and none of the amortized equipment nor time be compensated. The
$120 will be sufficient. I can only imagine that this is small potatoes
compared to the legal fees.
Lastly, Joshua, I am constantly exposed to close friends and
associates who have diametrically opposing political and social views. It
astounds me that we could have actually come from the same culture. I feel
sometimes like what Abraham and Lot must have felt living in and around Sodom.
Yet like Lot, I maintain peaceable, but spirited and direct dialog with these
dear people. I extend that offer to you. I hold neither ill feelings nor
grudges and I’d sit over a cup of coffee anytime.
You may, at any time, contact me (even peaceably argue) via:
peoplesvoice@hotmail.com or
visit my website at http://peoplespassions.org/peoplespassions.html.
You may find the short essays on politics and religion
compelling, but if not you will definitely come away understanding how a
reasoned person could take the positions that I and a majority of Americans
did.
May God Bless you,
Steve Marquis
A chance to dialog From Welbaum
hello Mr. Marquis,
this is a e mail from Joshua Welbaum. And i guess i would like a
chance to dialogue with you finally. Even though i do not think you
will ever hear what i have to say. i also have a web blog but i do not
keep it up as well as you do. it is www.joshuawelbaum.blog.com .
a little bit about me though. i have been a Christian since i was 17.
in high school i was president of campus Christian fellowship and a
strong republican. i was the only one that to a stand in my Government
class against flag burning. (i still do not like the idea of burning
the flag.) from high school i went in to officer training at fort
Knox, where on a run my knee gave out and ended my time in the army
which was my life long dream to be an officer in. after this i turned
to God, after some real questioning time and started to do mission
work. i love the LORD and have spent 6 years in schools in Germany,
England, India, Ireland and here in issaquah getting my degree in
biblical studies. this with a background in Presbyterian, Lutheran,
Evangelical non- denominational and Mennonite. I have spent lots of
time overseas serving the LORD and have seen a lot of things and
worshiped with many different kinds of Christians all over the world.
i have in my time reading and acting the word have come to some
conclusions. one is that the more i learn the less i know. two the
main thing that God calls me to is simply to be thankful. and lastly
my life goal is to get to heaven and have the LORD look at me. face to
face and say "josh, i wish you were just a bit more judgmental down on
earth. you just loved TOO much." this because i feel that against love
there is no law. so if i do not know how to act in a situation i err
on the side of love. this is why i had a problem with your signs. they
not only displayed your beliefs. you did it while making fun of them.
both Homosexuals and the French. i am still sorry that i did not value
you in all of this and i hope that there is no hard feeling. i look
forward to talking with you in the future. maybe we both will learn
something. i also promise not to get mad at you and hope that you
would speak your mind. Christan to Mormon. closing the gap between our
faiths.
thank you,
joshua welbaum
Marquis; I wish we could have met prior
Dear Joshua,
I wish I could have 1st met you prior to the heat of the election. I have great respect for anyone you has dedicated himself to the service of the Lord. It is completely heartening to me that they, with the knowledge they have, intend to serve Him their very best. One of my dear Lutheran friends recently left for Egypt to work with the struggling Christians there. I truly wished him the best and thanked him for his willingness to serve. He responded that coming from me, he considered that a high compliment. I understood his remark. Many, not all, but I think a great many Christian based sects feel threatened or a palpable rivalry because we evangelize not only the true heathen, but believers as well, This translates into a variety of Anti-Mormon tracts, firesides, even movies and active picketing. I think he assumed that we spend as much effort talking to our flock is a similar despairing manner about other faiths, - hence his remark. But, we virtually never do. We speak the truth as we have come to understand it and nary mention a word other than in appreciation of our fellow Christians. I think our position is best expressed by a short event recounted in the New Testament:
Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one
casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad
him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a
miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part (Luke 9:50: “or
for us”)
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye
belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
Folks see the world
through the eyes of their own experiences and attitudes. The liar assumes all
the world lies. The thief is extra
cautions of his own purse and my friend assumed that in my congregations we
take time over the pulpit to disparage Lutherans.
Likewise, in you
opening line, you assumed that I could not hear your voice
“Even though i do not think you will ever hear what i have to say.”
I have taken the
time to read your manifesto. You sound like a very angry person in your writing
and action; ready to take on the foes; your cause justifying all action to meet
your ends.
“I am proud of what i did, but i wish i did not have to do it.”
How good it feels
to tear up the works of the “evil” fundamentalists…Please, Joshua, consider
what you said in a different light; You are rightly concerned with “arrogance”.
“…one is that the more i learn the less i know”
Is it just possible
that with additional light and knowledge that you might see the world, your
current opinions in a whole new perspective???
It may surprise
you, but my ancestry is French, yet I have poor regard for what that nation is
heading to; not just its leadership, though they are leading the charge. Christianity and it’s value systems are all
but dead to the vast majority of the people. That does not mean we give up on
them. (see The story of Jonah), but we do no service being afraid to call sin
and error what it is. Here is the key thing that I think would be worth
considering, Joshua. John (the forerunner) and Jesus had only a few basic
messages; some of them were directed at groups, and some were directed at individuals.
Most our problems stem from mixing up the messages and the audiences.
1)
Repent
you sinners!
2)
Believe
in Jesus
3)
Let
Him change your heart so you can be saved from your sins
4)
Love
the individual
5)
Do
good to all – especially to the overt sinners and those who offend you
Did I miss any…?
Those who think
that Jesus will cover up your sins with his white cloaks are missing the point
and will be hanging out on the left with the goats, so to speak. His blood was
intended to wash us and cleanse and change us not to smuggle our filthy soul
past St Peter at the pearly gates. The scriptures say “We will see him because
we will be like him.” 1John 3:2
Those who preach
that Jesus only preached non judgment, there is no sin, are cherry picking
their scriptures to cover their own sins or to gratify their pride.
They love to quote
“neither do I condemn thee” carefully editing out His follow on admonition to
the woman to “go and sin no more”
They wrap themselves around “Judge not that ye be not judged” but sweep under His command to “judge righteous judgment.”
There is a huge
difference between loving a sinner vs. accepting, even mainstreaming the sin.
Our school system in this last generation – starting with mine has been so
indoctrinating our youth with PC, don’t judge anything, “I’m OK Your OK” that
many feel it obscene to call anything good our bad. It has all become relative,
but God has not and all the hermeneutics aren’t going to change one of the
least of God’s commandments.
If I had said,
“Homosexuals are low life scummy hell-bate” – that would be judgmental of
persons I did not know and proscribed, by Jesus’ admonitions about our
interpersonal relationships. On the other hand, Saying Kerry Voted for
Homosexual Marriage (or against banning it) is just a statement of fact about a
political position, attacks no person and is value neutral. If you are for
homosexual marriage so called, then my sign simply tells you who to vote for.
Ferreting out knowledge is exactly what Jesus told us to use when He said,
“judge righteous judgment”. That you took such extreme umbrage belies that deep
down, you know that homosexuality is understood by almost all to be forbidden
by God and thus Kerry position was cast in a disparaging light. There was
nothing offensive about that sign other than the naked truth.
If the debaters
cannot tolerate the simple truth however biting, then the kitchen is way too
hot for them to be cooks. This requires thicker skin, not an angry rant. This
in not about being cordial to a homosexual neighbor, this is about public
policy that we cast judgment on and should it step from “tolerating” to
“promoting.” Do you see the difference?
Consider the
content found here:
http://peoplespassions.org/peoplesvoice/peoplesvoice.html
Steve
Marquis Response
Joshua,
I was once young and impetuous. I understand this, as I was once a much more feisty individual than I am presently. I have learned that it is best to cast those you deal with in the best possible light and with the best possible motives. I told my wife some time ago that I was certain that this individual felt like the Jews yelling angrily to crucify Him; that this person most certainly felt that breaking the law and trespassing another was just doing Gods bidding – thus obeying a higher law.
You really need to get beyond the arrogant supposition that you can accomplish good by doing evil. Reading your web site confirmed my suspicion and this article needs help. If you have truly seen the error of your ways, then you should seriously consider revising or augmenting your prose. Even in your letter of apology to me, you could not quite bare to actually feel sorry for what you did without slipping in justification about caring more for others. A lot of folks, who seek to gratify their pride by sighting Jesus and his whip, fail to recognize 3 facts: 1 it was His house. 2 He actually kept his cool gently handling the animals, 3 he is God and we are not – or as you tried to explain, not yet.
I’d love to talk theology or it’s practical application with you, but there are some rules:
A) Be very careful asserting what you think The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes. It is much safer to quote and assert that it is your understanding that… Generally non-members don’t quite get it right by reading a few passageways. If you and the Fundamentalists, encompassing millions of Bible studying parishioners and scholarly hermeneutics fans cannot come to a “unity of faith”, why should you think to understand fully our religious doctrines with 3 times as many scriptures?
B) Latter Day Saints generally don’t like the Christian Vs Mormon label. If you look at most any “Get out of Hell” card from just about any protestant ministry, The steps are carried out by all Mormons, who while not in any was eschewing Mormon prefer to refer to ourselves as Latter Day Saints, Saints. If the name is a bit long, the Church of Jesus Christ or LDS this or that is considered appropriate.
C) Quote your sources. If it is a large essay acquired from some book, tract or web site, make that clear and if it is available on line, just include the link. I want to be very certain what are your words and what is reference material.
D) Avoid at all cost offensive statements like “Real Christians know what the real gospel…” remember that judgment drum you were beating. Who are you or I to say who is a Real Christian – Even Jesus himself corrected a questioner – “There is none good but God!” Likewise, there is still a load of youthful petulance that occasionally gets away from my pen. I will endeavor in discussing thing try not to cast personal judgments.
To the content:
My preference is to emphasize the words of Jesus and then augment my understanding of his will via the Apostles. I noticed that article, (I’m guessing not your writing) scrupulously avoided ever quoting Christ nor did he deal with the writings found in James that adds considerable light to this subject. To do a good job on this subject requires a pretty broad take on many writings; not just cherry picking your favorite verses whilst one tiptoes around those less supportive. An article that anticipates and handles such is enlightening indeed.
I will speak to the theological content if you like at another time as it is late.
I will mention one thing; that the author mangles the LDS position by equating heaven with exaltation. The fact is, almost all Christian based religions, including our own, believe that by faith alone you are saved from eternal hell. Furthermore, virtually all Christian based religions believe that ones rewards in heaven are commensurate with deeds.
Consider my words at:
http://peoplespassions.org/peoplesfaith/essays/Whats_all_this_Stuff_about_Religion_anyway.htm#_Toc77934161 on Salvation
or
Brother Steve
Welbaum “I Might do it again”
well Steve, i do feel sorry for DAMAGING you sign, and that i did not
value you as a child of God. however if i feel sorry for what i did
means not doing again, i do not know. my goal for us that you would
see that the world is not only black and white. i believe that who
Jesus is is clear and that God loves us. however there is a balance
struck in scripture that leads me to think that it is imposable to
completely order or lives with a action in every possible situation.
therefor i feel that if there is no law against love that i should
love and rest on Gods mercy because i can't do it by myself. if i
could what use is Jesus? i told my wife when this happened that we
both see ourselves as martyrs. me maybe in light of Isiah and you in
the light of Ezra and Nehemiah. one called to break walls and the
others called to build them. so i am willing to say that God is using
us both to further dialogue. i will never see what i did as wrong. i
am proud of myself for doing it and standing up to you. one because i
was in my house, issaquah where i live and you don't, two i did not
hurt you or your friends even though you blocked my path and three i
am not God yet but i feel God would not have put that sign up for he
spent most of his time with the despised of this world not with the
people who were so outwardly "perfect" they did not need what he said
or what he offered because their world was so well ordered his love
for a person was too complicated. you know your system and i would
offer the one i try hard to follow. our lives are but experiments in
truth. in this we learn. i will never be able to out shout you. i
spent a day in jail and got arrested by 3 of the four detectives in
issaquah. what happened to me was way over the top of what should have
happened. maybe you could talk of Gods love next time and see how many
people you make angry. you are in love with God and i can tell. if i
were to envy anything in the LDS church it is their commitment to
missions. i wish some of the churches i have went to would have that
commitment. family home evening although having a really corny name is
a wonderful idea, and to go on how the LDS really tries to offer a
community to its believers. wow. Steve i do see a lot of me in you and
i wonder if you see the same in me. you had what i see as a violent
means to your end in putting you sign up like you see what i did is
wrong in taking it down. I wish you sign would have said something
about the apathy and poverty of this country. i pray daily for people
to turn there lives around and put off their old selves. i pray that
for myself. but the wonderful thing is that God can even use people
that are not perfect or without sin, if you do not believe it just
open your bible to page one and read on. Steve our side wins. the
battle has already be fought, let us not react but act in love. the
law will kill both of us, love will set us free.
sorry i am at work and i am rambling. i will let you go.
thanks if you read to this far.
Joshua welbaum
Marquis Response
Sheesh,
After reading your last note suggesting your days of trampling on others rights might not be over, I regret not allowing the full force of the law take its affect. You seem to love and feel empowered by this martyr thing and apparently you have learned precious little other than it sucks to get caught. So by showing mercy, I have only cheated the hangman with no benefit to you or the community you harmed. Believe me, I do not feel the role of victim nor a martyr. I was hoping you had learned that unfettered dialog is the only thing that keeps opposing sides from severe violence. Your actions took our city one step closer to such anarchy and as such, your crime was a much more severe crime – a crime against all the people. You managed to avoid violence that day simply because I happened to chose to show mercy at that moment. The police have made it quite plain to me that a man is in his rights to defend his property and person with violence as necessary… You see where this goes. I have to hope you do not really want to be on that kind of path.
Your writings continue to place yourself as God and King of the territory of Issaquah – or does your reach extend to King county and beyond? You suppose that because you sleep in a house, you are Mayor, Police Chief, Judge and jury? Its no wonder your blog was so obsessed with the word arrogance. I would say arrogance IS your empowerment; NOT any command from God.
To your theological points:
Jesus said if ye love me keep my commandments. You certainly don’t preach that approach. Joshua, they are the 10 commandments, not the 10 suggestions. There is no gray. You spend your intellect and energy clinging to a vain hope of unfettered mercy. Jesus came to save men from their sins – not in them. His holy spirit convicts those who will hearken of their sins and then empowers them to turn from sin. While no man is likely to be perfect in all actions, we can have our heart and our desires perfected. Our actions will align themselves. That is what the scriptures mean about being saved after all we can do. That is what “working out your salvation with fear and trembling” is implying.
Years ago as a missionary in Norway, I ran across a pamphlet from a group called the Children of God led by one Moses David. Every other word was love this love that; lots of guitar and plunge neckline photos. My favorite cartoon in the pamphlet shows this guy being helped out of the world’s trashcan by clutching a sexy dressed woman’s breasts while she lifts him out. The red thread running throughout this abomination was the idea that God’s will and commandments play second fiddle to Lust cloaked behind the pervasive overuse of the word “love.” Your writting suggests a strong influence of this free love Christian sect.
If two drunks truly have love for each other, they would not pass the bottle to each other. If two have same sex attraction, then they would do well to avoid any further contact and pray for strength to overcome those feelings and to subjugate the flesh to the will of the spirit. If we can expect teenagers to abstain until marriage, we know it is possible to obey.
It is one thing to beg God for mercy as a contrite sinner. He recognizes his sin and pleads for strength to overcome. This is right and consistent with all that God has said. But you seem to actively preach that sin is no sin and that striving to keep God’s commandments is a waste of effort. That is very dangerous ground indeed.
1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Tim 3:1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
There are just so many scriptures that preach repentance and the coupling of faith and works. All of Paul’s writings referring to the Law referenced the strict codes the Jews lived under and he attempted to teach them that salvation required forgiveness of sins and that through Jesus. This in no way sweeps away all Jesus and the Apostles preached about abounding in good works. In fact Jesus even had a parable about works and how he would dismiss professing Christians who did not do his will.
I don’t know what your hang-up about homosexuals is, but God has a real problem with those who miss-use the procreative powers and fornicators, adulterers and homosexuals are specifically listed as NOT inheriting the Kingdom of God. So you better repent from preaching or practicing otherwise. Period.
I have to choose how to spend the talent of time my master has given me. I do not think I can spend too much more of it on one who will so actively fight against Gods will. But, if you would read my writings 1st I may be willing to dialog some more. Better yet read another testament of Christ in the Book of Mormon and strive to obey all Gods commandments to the best of your ability and then when you seek to council from God regarding the veracity of His word, I am sure he will be inclined to reveal it’s truth to you. Otherwise, if you fight against the council he has already given you, I am equally certain that he will not give you more – why bother right?
Oh one last Item Jesus spent time with anyone who was humble enough to listen. His Apostles included well off small businessmen, Rich government workers and he was buried in a wealthy aristocrats tomb. Humility and the willingness to follow him by striving to keep his commandment is what made you his disciple. Confessing with the lips maybe the 1st step, but God has made it sooo so plane that “talk’s cheap!”
Best Wishes on your journey.
Brother Steve
Lastly: My son home from Iraq wanted me to point out God’s will more simply with this ditty.
If God was in favor of Gay marriage he would have made Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve
Welbaum’s old self
would it really destroy you small world to have grace abound in
someones life? the only thing that God calls us to is thankfulness.
And yes i am still proud of what i did. i am sorry you did not read my
whole letter. cant you see that we can agree to disagree? as far as
what your son from Iraq said... i could care less. so he was in Iraq.
i am sorry he had to go, but hay i was over there with out a gun
actually talking to Iraqis not stacking them naked on top of each
other. it just goes to show the infantile baby's that get sent over
there cause bad things to happen. so instead of your baby of a son
they should send a man not a boy. how could i expect a Mormon to see
anything in the bible except that he will one day be a God of his own
planet. and you lecture me on biblical truth? you are truly a sad
person. sorry but don't you see you Coward that you are hiding behind
rights that you would deny others.
joshua welbaum
PS if i had known that your friend had taken pictures of my wife i
would have not been non violent.
Marquis; True Colors?
Well Josh,
Looks like your true colors are spilling out all over these pages. I remember your 1st words on that street corner; something like, “I want you to know I’m a devout Christian.” The next thing out of your mouth was something not to be repeated in mixed company. “Oh,” I thought, “THAT church!” I will agree that we are not likely to agree on anything substantive. Your contempt for Gods laws makes you an enemy of God. That puts you the other side of the line. I can only hope your experiences of late have taught you what our society will and will not tolerate in the arena of ideas. Stay in the arena of ideas and you’ll be fine.
You really aught to take a civics’ course and for Goodness sake re-read the Bible – the whole thing, not just a few handpicked verses. Making up rights on one hand (I’ll get violent if you take my picture in public) and dismissing real constitutional rights on the other shows that either you are completely ignorant of the law and the gospel or you have a terminal Napoleon complex.
Grow up. Whenever you get upset, you revert to either physical or verbal violence via belittling name-calling. You can rise above that. Here are a few direct comments and quotes…
* “small world” ---please
*I did read the whole letter and your entire blog – have you read any of the articles I recommended or the Book of Mormon or are you content to remain in the safe cocoon of your own opinion?
*My son was with a gun at all times – either a carbine or a 50 caliber
*There are about a quarter million soldiers there and in every war there have been a few who abuse the situation. Sounds just like home. Don’t besmirch the great majority by the actions of a tiny few.
*My son was a man that I could trust in life or death by the time he was 12. Do you have no comprehension whatsoever of the depths of your personal arrogance to call him, who you have never met a “baby of a son?”
*Again you arrogantly think you know what millions of other people think and know, and what they have read and studied. Maybe you are much closer to being a God than you realize.
*Sorry person”, “Coward” Oh my. What you hide behind is your fierce temper. When you don’t get your way or get cornered in an argument, your defense is to lash out in angry action or hostile speech.
Lastly, Cool your jets. Believe me, Josh, you do not ever want a violent confrontation; least of all with folks like me who believe and take advantage of ALL those pesky Constitutional amendments. Better re-read them especially the Bill of rights!
This will be my last missive. May God yet find a way to reach your rebellious soul. I am only sorry that I was unable to be more persuasive to His cause.
Brother Steve
Ps If you have some odd hang-up about someone recording your wife’s picture, you might consider a burke or a veil next time she accompanies you on an illegal escapade. That’ll cover great for security cameras as well. Better yet don’t put your wife into the embarrassing situation where a security camera will naturally be focused on you because you ARE the security problem.